My disagreements with MGTOW

What does it mean to be independent?

© Dave DuBay

A few months back I wrote that men’s roles are changing in unexpected ways. One example I gave are men going their own way (MGTOW).

MGTOW are against marriage, and many eschew relationships with women altogether. They claim society is gynocentric:

  • men being expected to accommodate feminism while also fulfilling the traditional male role,
  • the welfare state being primarily a forced transfer of resources from working men to women via taxation,
  • women’s marital obligations ending at divorce (which mostly women initiate) while men’s obligations continue as alimony,
  • family court’s discrimination against men, who typically are not given equal child custody and can be forced to pay child support even when a DNA test shows no biological relationship,
  • and the specter of false rape allegations.

Mgtow.com says they’re all about individual sovereignty—“the manifestation of one word: ‘No.’”

Avoiding marriage and fatherhood are legitimate choices. But there are three disagreements I have with MGTOW:

First, women seem to be one of the primary discussion topics. Imagine a man who quit drinking but continuously talks about alcohol. He’d seem like a dry drunk rather than someone who truly left alcohol behind. Or imagine a man who rarely mentions football and seems bored when others bring it up. He’d seem like a man who is truly not a sports person.

Why, then, do so many men who say they’ve gone their own way—that is, away from women—when spend so much time talking about women? A man whose life does not revolve around women, it seems to me, would instead talk about his hobbies and interests. MGTOW who rarely talk about women and instead talk mostly about how to unplug for society, live off the grid, etc. seem like they’ve truly gone their own way.

Second, MGTOW beliefs about women’s “true nature” are mostly a collection of crude stereotypes: women don’t think logically, they’re narcissistic, they’re manipulative, and the female brain is inferior — that’s why women can’t take responsibility for anything.

However, MGTOW are outraged over feminists’ pejorative claims about masculinity being about domination, misogyny, and homophobia. The irony, apparently, is lost on them.

This enmity, however, not only comes at the expense of our shared humanity—a person can’t be happy so long as he’s focused on blaming someone else.

Finally, MGTOW seem too focused on the blame game. Life is unfair, but do MGTOW really think they have it worse than other people? If MGTOW don’t believe society will change then why even bother collecting grievances?

A man can choose to focus on what is under his control—his deliberate actions and choices. And he can focus on his goals—what he wants to do now that romantic relationships are no longer an issue for him. But focusing on women and societal wrongs will only hold him back.

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Author: Dave DuBay

Dave is a social worker from Phoenix, Arizona. He blogs at thepaintedporch.net. He's also at twitter.com/Dave_DuBay.

29 thoughts on “My disagreements with MGTOW”

  1. Some interesting points here.

    I have some sympathies with MGTOW in that men should not be defined in society as providers and other toxic gender norms that have harmed and continue to harm men, some of which women must claim some responsibility. They are largely right in that many feminists expect men to accommodate the changing role of women while expecting men to continue to adhere to ours.

    MGTOW should be the natural position of men wishing to break free from those gender norms, but they are not for the reasons you state.

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    1. Happy new year, CUCH! I do like MGTOW’s focus on independence, which goes for men and women alike. And I agree with most of the bullet points (though I do believe in a social safety net for children; and I think that false rape accusation, while not rare, are not as common as some claim they are).

      But their anti-woman focus drowns this out. And ironically, this focus on women means MGTOW inadvertently define themselves in relation to women, negating their stated goal.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Happy New Year to you too!

        Bingo, this is my major gripe with them. The title is “men going their own way” so why are they so focused with women, especially the rejection thereof? They can’t truly do that until they start defining themselves by what they are, not by what they’re not.

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    1. How about “going your own way” like you claim you are and by not defining yourself by your relationship (or lack of) to women? Because while you bang on about how awful women are, you’re wasting a lot of time and energy not going your own way.

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      1. It’s basically about hierarchy. Men who are seen in the mgtow movement by writing / media sharing are at a certain point of their human individual development. The old role model for men tells them that they have to have a leading position somewhere in a hierarchy no matter which one. Their self-esteem is grounded in that unconsciously. You are mediocre at your job? No problem as long as you are leading the marathon. You are not leading that one either? No problem as long as your girlfriend is the hottest chick around. This isn’t the case either and you do not even have a girlfriend? Then you are obviously the end of the – old role model – ladder. You are the looser. There is no one you are better then.
        But wait: You still can construct yourself some sort of character superiority over women because – while it’s not openly acknowledged – most fellow men will at least tolerate this attitude and let you feel superior there, because they simply don’t care about losers. They will let you have that.
        If someone is – unconsciously – still believing stuff like that, he needs to constantly convince others to feel this constructed superiority, which is of course delusional. This is like beating himself up with a stick all the time hurting himself. And because it hurts, needing others who hurt too, to compare whose hurt is the biggest (again hierarchy)… Endless unconstructive circle.
        Nothing of that helps to feel better. It’s just proving: If Your Only Tool Is a Hammer Then Every Problem Looks Like a Nail.
        Hierarchy is not working for inner problems with self. You can hammer that nail until you bleed – it will not change the situation you are in. Getting up and filling your toolbox with new tools you can use for different occasions on the other hand works pretty well. As long as the mgtow follower do not do that – they will be stuck and they will blame society for it.
        Real Men going their own way are out there a lot. Many are married and have kids. They understand that hierarchy is one tool of many and one, which has to be overthrown in the moment it does not do a supportive job and they face responsibility for their own actions – including their social choices!

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      2. I don’t think it’s all about hierarchy. Partially yes. But there are many men who have been exploited by women, though they often fail to express their concerns appropriately–and their concerns are not taken seriously.

        Conflicting demands of gender roles are also an issue. Your reference to “real men,” and describing them as married with children, is an example of the continued demand for traditional gender roles. But would we describe “real women” as married with children? What about women who choose to be single and childless?

        I support men and women rejecting traditional gender roles, including marriage and children; and I support men and women cutting their own path even if it’s not in line with feminist ideology. But I don’t support doing so in a sexist, anti-woman or anti-male, way. And that’s my biggest problem with MGTOW.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. A thorough explanation! MGTOW who talk about nothing but women and how women have wronged them are no different from those feminists who are still obsessed with men. The irony is that both sides fail to see it.

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      4. if all men were aware of how marriage laws and family courts are biased against them along with the rate of marriage failure. The marriage industry would cease tomorrow.

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  2. Additional to what Dave DuBay said, my sympathies with MGTOW, limited as they are, precisely focus on deconstructing the gendered expectations placed on men – expectations that many women are blissfully unaware or do not see as problematic.

    I do not have and do not want children and after one failed marriage with a wife who forgot the bit about “forsaking all others”, I choose not to marry again, no matter how long I am with my current girlfriend who I do love without feeling I have to put a ring on it to prove that. Contrary to most feminist claims, people do look down on child-free and unmarried men as some kind of responsibility-shirking man-child.. The usefulness of MGTOW is in challenging this norm, but they take it too far in their obsession with women.

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  3. Dave,
    I was accused by my ex that I “might have” been inappropriate with my 7 year old daughter in order for my ex to win in a custody battle. DYFS does a full investigation, finds my ex to me mentally unstable, what does the judge do, lets my ex stay in the house, gives me partial custody. What do you think happened to all of my possessions? Judge orders psych exam for both of us, I take mine immediately by the state psych officer, she goes to a private place to get her’s done. She does not fight custody now as that is the only way a judge will look at the psych exam that she herself ordered, and did not even remember our case enough to realize she ordered these exams, and asked us if we wanted any done. 40k spent by me defending myself for a false allegation, and if you think for one minute this is not common you are wrong. This IS the new divorce tactic as it gets her possession of the house. And the police, etc, they just can’t wait to be the “hero’s” for the damsel in distress (your ex) and to enjoy evicting you from your house- so the men are just as bad.
    You can’t discuss this without discussing women, so yes, women are to be included in any talks of this type.
    I do not suggest ANY male ever get married- sure if it goes right, great, but many females are fickle and change over time- what you had before is not what you have now. It’s not worth the risk.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I’m not sure what your comment has to do with what I wrote. I made it clear that “Avoiding marriage and fatherhood are legitimate choices.” So that aspect of MGTOW is not among my objections. My disagreements concern different matters.

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  4. Imagine a man who quit drinking but continuously talks about alcohol.

    This are called AAA meetings end many people who are clean for years still atend them?

    Ask yourself why and you will find the anwser.

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  5. I follow the MGTOW philosophy. All your bullet points about MGTOW are correct. Women have an advantage over men right now and some feminist want men to suffer for no other reason.

    First, MGTOW type do not hate women. Most MGTOW types desire women, but know in these modern times they simply cannot have them. They have become toxic and entitled, not to mention women have the justice system behind them. Many women know this and abuse it. If a woman gets mad, she can accuse anything and the man gets arrested. Some men are then attacked by the white knights who think they are protecting the women folk from these horrible men…

    Now comes the Red Pill conversion. It’s not an overnight change. Most new to MGTOW need to get a daily dose of instructed and demonstrated examples of female nature. The burned guys come in ready and seem nearly fully red pilled, but they can just be angry. Most
    Men need to be shown what women are.

    During this time, it’s not unsual for these men just to causally date or begin to think about leaving their spouses. They start to notice all the little things, and it begins to bother them that they can tell they are being used by women, have been since mamma, and as they gain that connection of female nature, many men see the reason to avoid all relationships and marriage. Do not even become a target to be chased. That nature is to use sex as a way to get guys to give up their resources and time to these women. To control them. To enslave them.

    The problem is guys really want love and sex. Hence why red pill forums exist so guys can learn and vent. No straight guy who loves sex is going to be able to stop cold turkey. It goes in phases. The realization. Then denial. Then grief. Then acceptance. Then actually going your own way. Then self actualization.

    Once the man goes his own way does he really look MGTOW. Not until he goes into monk-mode. That’s when he will do and errand for what he wants to do in life. It might be any number of combinations of work, research and hobbies. Guys need to compete in their various forms, and find their challenge and passion for life. Once they hit that, once they focus on that end point to what is their own unique success and seek it, they hit self actualization.

    But men are still biologically designed to want
    to embrace love, enjoy sex on their terms, and maybe even desire kids. All MGTOWs will have their moments needing Red Pills. They are in known locations on the Internet. Always a painful reminder of what women are. What they will do to your life. What you will lose if you fall for some Chameleon who plays you, gets you married, gets their needs and wants met, then monkey branches to a new guy with more and better resources later, leaving you in a wake of a divorce.

    So if you are new to MGTOW, you might see the rants of new, and graduating men from women. Some are truly hateful of women. Some are burned. Some are seeing all kinds of failure in their relationships, and the goal is to red pill all guys, the earlier the better. Save them the misery.

    The good news is that MGTOW is a growing movement. More guys than ever are red pilling to their own success. There is talk and it seems that millennials and guys in the military are embracing MGTOW philosophy, and as a result hopefully future legislation will result to make it actually fair in the family courts. More education for potential white knights to catch themselves before they get emotionally locked into some antiquated traditional idea that women are weak and need the protected from the guys they are likely abusing.

    If all else fails, society crumbles. Population crashes. Governments get desperate, and things change.

    Until then, take a red pill today to keep all those third wave feminist away.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. You see, this is where you lose me. I was burnt by my ex-wife and instead of retreating into a shell and deciding that all women are money-grabbing whores out to fleece all men for every penny they have, I chose to recognise my ex’s toxicity and vowed not to make the same mistakes again. I vowed to assert myself with the next relationship and ensure that my needs are met as well as hers.

      There is always a middle ground.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Majority of marriages end in divorce, its mostly women that file for divorce and its mostly men that pay alimony. maybe not all women are gold digging whores but most of them show no shame in going after money. Statistically marriage is a serious risk

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  6. Simply put,
    Point 1:
    Its called venting and reinforcement, and people do it all the time for a number of different reasons mainly to balance their sanity.
    Its not like MGTOWS spend ALL tbeir time posting their views. But when they need to after seeing their gender blasted and ridiculed day in and day out, they need to express themselves in some fashion.
    Maybe its because there are so many that one would be under the impression that a smaller group is doinig it consistently?
    Point two: True Nature? Its called biology. Regardless of species, males are supposed to provide and females to nurture offspring. However with gynocentrism, hypergamy, and feminism, women have been allowed to abandon those roles while men are still required to fill theirs.
    Regardless of political left or right, women expect men to pay for everything with the backing of the legal system while men have no say or return in the matter.
    Thats the “new” True Nature.
    Point Three: If you look at MGTOW postings carefully enough, they go after everbody who contributes to gynocentrism as a whole. Government, religion, the legal system, law enforcement, the MSM, advertising, education, entertainment, and the internet just to name a few.
    Its just that women perpetuate these cries of entitlement and pseudo- victimizion that MGTOW blame them instead of the faceless above mentioned entities which are all too willing to support them.
    Or to put it another way,
    Just combine Points One and Two.

    I hope this clarifies some confusion.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. I completely agree, and find the current focus of the MGTOW community deplorable and self-sabotaging.

    The “red pill rage” (in essence the anger felt after one awakens to reality) is overwhelmingly prevalent in the current dialogue.

    Not only does it embitter men who would be best served growing as individuals, but it reinforces feminist paranoia.

    There is no freedom and independence in clutching to anger and resentment.

    I myself will endeavour to help break this cycle.

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  8. Being MGTOW does not mean abandoning having an opinion. When I see a lie or an injustice, I will comment. That right will be taken from us soon, use it while you can. It is the belief that there is a woman out there who cares about your happiness and you must do and give all you can to please her which is a lie- one which is pushed throughout Western society. There is no such woman. They want to access your resources (financial, social, emotional, legal etc.) and MGTOWs advocate avoiding any situations when you make yourself vulnerable to that position. There is only one person who cares about you and he is in the mirror. Work to enrich him and no one else.

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  9. When you quit drinking, your not drunk or suffering the ill effects of alcohol years after quitting drinking. The effects of divorce, especially financially many times last a very long time. There is no escaping it and it’s pain. As Dr. Jordan Peterson said, “Divorce for men is akin to having non fatal cancer.” People reach out for help and understanding when they are in pain. After quitting drinking, the pain, most of the time is over.

    I quit reading this article after that analogy.

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  10. Seems to me like writing articles about MGTOW is free advertising. This hit piece, which mostly targets low-hanging fruit, doesn’t bear up under scrutiny. “Well, if they don’t want anything to do with women, why talk about them?” I could almost think the concept of a PSA goes completely over your head and I can’t remember the last time someone asked the same question about Feminists, as simply stating “I hate men / men are animals / #KillAllMen” is never the end of it. Men don’t have to use themselves as human shields to protect women from assault rifle fire during mass shootings, or dive into traffic to push women out of the way of a speeding car, or give up their seat on the lifeboat so a woman can live, or throw their careers away by defending women from rich and powerful sleazebags – men don’t owe women these sacrifices and considering the last fifty years of obnoxiously stating over and over again “We don’t need a man for anything!” well, I think the statistics show that this kind of attitude was more liberating for men than it was for women. But how is a man to know these things when society tells us the opposite? I don’t think we can trust You to get the word out, so we have to do it ourselves, ergo we talk about it. Something tells me you could have figured this out for yourself but instead you chose to be demeaning and condescending so all the right people would know you’re on their side, not ours.

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  11. Ok, let me see if I can answer your 3 points…

    1. “First, women seem to be one of the primary discussion topics. Imagine a man who quit drinking but continuously talks about alcohol.”

    This is too easy and obvious, surely? If you are quitting booze then obviously you’re going to talk about booze, especially at an AA meeting. When you’re quitting serious relationships with women then obviously you’re going to talk about women, especially on forums about quitting serious relationships with women.

    I do agree that men going their own way could be well served with more advanced forums or communities, for those who have moved on past the “red pill rage” stage. At present there are none, as conventional publications or sites are all built around the “blue pill” concept of”Do this to improve your chance of getting laid/married” (and then divorced).

    OK, moving on…

    2. “Second, MGTOW beliefs about women’s “true nature” are mostly a collection of crude stereotypes:”

    Your list was a little misleading, wasn’t it? The main concepts MGTOW reveals are:

    Hypergamy – where the female of the species is always open to the idea of a better mate, even if he killed the last one. As we point out, you can have the looks of Brad Pitt, the brains of Einstein, the athletic abilty of Jordan but all those men were divorced by their wives, wives we don’t even know the names of but who considered themselves too good for those men.

    Monkey-branching – the well-established fact that women tend to deliberately set up other men as fall-backs if the current one fails to please. This has received more publicity lately but we’ve been talking about it for years.

    Dual-mating – where the woman will marry an agreeable simp but sex with an alpha guy, often cucking the unknowing simp with the alpha’s child. DNA studies prove 10-28% of children are NOT the biological offspring of the alleged “fathers”.

    The roundabout – where women will ride as many alphas as they can when younger, before “settling for” some simp, not for love but simply because he’ll do. Unless or until she gets a chance of hypergamy later.

    False accusations – about past and present lovers, often simply as an excuse why she left him “He was abusive!” – and so will YOU be, when she hypergamies out of your life and explains to her new alpha how bad you were. She’ll tell the judge too, to make it easier to get her way in the divorce.

    The lack of responsibility/accountability thing is so well-established I won’t cover it here, and I’m sure i mised some other bits but you get the idea. Moving on..

    “Finally, MGTOW seem too focused on the blame game. Life is unfair, but do MGTOW really think they have it worse than other people? If MGTOW don’t believe society will change then why even bother collecting grievances?”

    Here you’re missing the point of MGTOW. Some blame feminism, some blame women’s nature, some blame government, some blame capitalism, some blame socialism, some blame their parents or society as a whole etc. Doesn’t matter. The primary point is the game is too heavily rigged against men, and the only way to win is to not play.

    I hope that helps, somewhat?

    Yes, you’ll see rage. Anger is a stage we go through before finally accepting the reality that a cherished dream (that you could meet that one special woman who will love you as much as you love her) is DEAD. The dream dies because it was never real. That’s why we call it the Red Pill.

    Waking up to the fact that women are incapable of loving a man like a man loves a woman. They are incapable of the loyalty, committment, sense of duty and so on. You go your own way AFTER you have fully understood and accepted the facts.

    Rage at first, yes, but after awhile it’s like being angry at a cat for not wanting to go for walks with a leash.It’s just not in their nature, so there’s no point in being angry. The guys at this stage are the guys you won’t find on the MGTOW forums, because they’ve already gone.

    Geddit?

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  12. I think a lot of MGTOW do move on and don’t talk about women anymore, but they are not the ones posting all that often in MGTOW forums, well because they have moved on. I see the forums as a waypoint for guys just learning about MGTOW, they can see the stories from other men and they can vent their frustrations, something they cannot do in most places on the internet, so yes a lot of anger from them at that point but not something that will last forever for most of them. Do we think all women are the same? No of course not but the problem is any woman in western society CAN destroy a man just by her word alone, no real proof necessary, they can take your livelihood, your wealth and your kids if you have them. All because she got “bored”, and there is no way to know who will and won’t do this. Sorry but until that situation actually changes I see MGTOW continuing to grow and this divide between the sexes to continue, and women saying they understand now won’t cut it, laws have to change, real change needs to be seen otherwise women are no longer worth the risk they pose.

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